This is pretty interesting article in today's AJC (my place of employment) dealing with evangelicals and our voting tendencies. Also it has some references to my fav. place... Austin, TX yall! Please read and comment...
Evangelicals not looking at just one candidate
Christian activists: Political experts say voters reflect generational differences but their faith remains important.
By Eileen E. Flynn
Cox News Service
Published on: 02/25/08
Austin, Texas —- They gathered late on a Tuesday night, as they usually do, in a quiet upstairs room in Opal Divine's, a downtown Austin restaurant. The group of mostly 20- and 30-something Christians drank iced tea, red wine and Belgian ale and traded thoughts about the war in Iraq, abortion and immigration reform.
Some of them support Sen. John McCain for president. Some are torn between Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. All said their Christian faith informs the decision they will make in the voting booth.
The previous afternoon, about a dozen people had gathered in bright sunshine in front of the Governor's Mansion to say that former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee represented the best choice for Christians. Only Huckabee, they said, could save a country drifting toward socialism and secular humanism, protect the borders from criminals and take a stand for unborn babies. The two gatherings represent what could be a widening divergence among evangelical Christian voters that sets this election apart. Evangelicals mobilized behind President Bush in 2000 and 2004, but some observers say 2008 is revealing a more complex and nuanced picture of traditional Christians.
At the moment, no candidate can lay sole claim to the evangelical vote, said Michael Lindsay, a sociology professor at Rice University in Houston.
"2008 will go down as a real milestone in evangelicals' political activism," said Lindsay, whose book "Faith in the Halls of Power: How Evangelicals Joined the American Elite" portrays evangelicals as far more diverse and sophisticated than the stereotype of the right-wing fundamentalist.
The ideological divide seems to form along generational lines, says evangelical Christian writer Tony Campolo of Pennsylvania.
Evangelicals 40 and older tend to vote for the most socially conservative candidate and rally around issues like abortion and same-sex marriage, he said, but evangelicals under 40 are defining a new set of political priorities, with poverty and the environment at the top of the list. That means even on evangelical college campuses, usually havens for conservative thought, Clinton and Obama are finding support, Campolo said.
But that shift doesn't signify a change of heart on moral concerns, he said. Young evangelicals, he said, "still think abortion is immoral. They still think that homosexual marriage is not within their purview of truth. But they see these as not the overriding issues as older people do."....
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13 comments:
This is an interesting story. The fact that different generations would see their faiths differently seems obvious enough, unless you lump everyone together into a huge voting block.
The media has assumed for the last two decades that Christians only vote against abortion and gay marriage and that there are no other issues.
I think many in the younger generation don't see abortion changing and understand a constitutional amendment against gay marriage will make it legal after the courts get a hold of it.
BTW - you should make comments open to everyone, this is a production.
thanks for the comment man. what do you mean it's a production? and how do I make it open to everyone?
So here is a question/scenario for you to think about. Political leaders don’t want to pass statutes/laws giving GLBT’s equal rights and recognition because of their biased opinions, fears and so called morality.
Christians say that it is against god, the bible and nature and this is something they are bound to follow, right??? Okay so, just as such, let’s go with it....
GOD is love, it is in our nature to love, god does not make mistakes, right? Imperfection? and so you continue to argue.. but, is fault put on those of whom is born gay, and didn’t GOD love the world so much that he gave his only begotten son to die for forgiveness of our imperfections/sins? Doesn’t the bible/GOD say do not judge, for you will be judged? Turn the other cheek? Love your neighbors as oneself? Love you enemies?
As you argue these points to death and find the ways to justify what suits your own selfish means, lets cut to the chase and put the real challenge of truth in perspective.
Christians you are bounded to the bible which is GOD’s word, right? To preach bits and pieces and not follow GOD’s word in whole is hypocritical and blasphemy by way of telling GOD that only part of what he says is good enough for you right?
In the bible the son of GOD says to pay Ceaser’s things to Ceaser and GOD’s things to GOD.
So technically religion should not be tied in with state or politics. You should depend on GOD to lead you, deliver you and save you. Not a political ruler, as Ceaser during Christ’s time...
Shouldn’t the Ceaser of our time (Supreme Courts, etc.) lead this kingdom (USA) and let GOD guide you through your path to life? Or do you only follow part of the bible with half of your heart and leave room for hypocrisy; or do you devote your whole self to GOD and his kingdom?
Let all speak now before GOD and Ceaser!
Are you a hypocrite performing in GOD’s name or true to oneself and to your GOD?
Choose your side now!
GOD, Ceaser and Lucifer are listening!
So here is a question/scenario for you to think about. Political leaders don’t want to pass statutes/laws giving GLBT’s equal rights and recognition because of their biased opinions, fears and so called morality.
Christians say that it is against god, the bible and nature and this is something they are bound to follow, right??? Okay so, just as such, let’s go with it....
GOD is love, it is in our nature to love, god does not make mistakes, right? Imperfection? and so you continue to argue.. but, is fault put on those of whom is born gay, and didn’t GOD love the world so much that he gave his only begotten son to die for forgiveness of our imperfections/sins? Doesn’t the bible/GOD say do not judge, for you will be judged? Turn the other cheek? Love your neighbors as oneself? Love you enemies?
As you argue these points to death and find the ways to justify what suits your own selfish means, lets cut to the chase and put the real challenge of truth in perspective.
Christians you are bounded to the bible which is GOD’s word, right? To preach bits and pieces and not follow GOD’s word in whole is hypocritical and blasphemy by way of telling GOD that only part of what he says is good enough for you right?
In the bible the son of GOD says to pay Ceaser’s things to Ceaser and GOD’s things to GOD.
So technically religion should not be tied in with state or politics. You should depend on GOD to lead you, deliver you and save you. Not a political ruler, as Ceaser during Christ’s time...
Shouldn’t the Ceaser of our time (Supreme Courts, etc.) lead this kingdom (USA) and let GOD guide you through your path to life? Or do you only follow part of the bible with half of your heart and leave room for hypocrisy; or do you devote your whole self to GOD and his kingdom?
Let all speak now before GOD and Ceaser!
Are you a hypocrite performing in GOD’s name or true to oneself and to your GOD?
Choose your side now!
GOD, Ceaser and Lucifer are listening!
Wow, you're a prickly one aren't you? You've got a lot of anger in you. I can't say that some of it isn't justified. Christians and religion make a lot of mistakes. Thankfully we're not in charge. At the same time, I don't really appreciate you jumping to conclusions on what i might think and believe. And you can use the Bible to justify and argue a lot of things that aren't necessarily what it's talking about. The whole "judge not lest ye be judged" is so misunderstood and pple use it so selfishly to justify anything they want to do. So maybe read more of the bible and read it with an open mind. Having an agenda will only get you exactly where you wanted to go before.
To your questions: They're good, I've wondered about them many times myself. How closely do I follow the bible? is it possible? is it literal all the time? The answers to those, I don't know. I still don't enjoy your attacking style, but maybe you have your reasons. As with all things in life, I believe a certain amount of faith is required.
Should God and Politics mix? Generally...no. I feel that being a christian will influence your viewpoint on a lot of political things. But I am in no way in favor of some kind of Christian Theocracy. In the same way, I don't think you should let any party tell you what is and isn't the Christian agenda. I'm actually reading a book on this very subject. It's called God for President. It challenges a lot of the established beliefs of the church on politics. It's really interesting, but I'm not that far yet. I'd love to talk to you more about it when I get further.
There are a lot of things that I find unclear in life, religion and the bible. I do my best to follow my religion and my God when things seem clear. When they don't, I try to have faith and not worry about them if they aren't pressing to my particular situation. Essentially I just try to love people and treat them with respect, whether or not I know if they are "sinning" or not. I can't say that I'm always successful or that I always try my best, but thankfully that's where the mercy and grace of Jesus Christ come in.
None of us will ever have all the answers. Until you put your faith in the one who does, you'll always be uneasy with that.
Anger? To some degree.... not all people are judgmental, but most are. The anger is the reasoning of which they do not pass the law. The only reason they have had to say no is based on religion and morality. I know the bible quite well, I grew up with a father as a former preacher; even he had to wake up and realize that it was wrong to judge due to religious beliefs.
Attacking? Hey if the shoe fits....
If people would allow themselves not be more open and not allow Christianity to cloud the judgment of political issues then maybe America will be what it is suppose to stand for... EQUALITY, FREEDOM and non-prejudiced.
It does upset me that I can not enjoy the rights of this country that all others are privileged enough to have, when ones like myself and my comrades have fought for our country to uphold a freedom that is still display prejudice and suppression of freedom.
I am always open to conversation. So again, If the shoe fits...
I have to say theianjo, that that is well said, would like more detail, but I can understand what it is you are feeling and I don't blame you for being angry. A lot of people will not understand your take on this matter until they themselves are suppressed, discriminated against or loose a loved one. Not be able to tie loose ends or maintain property and no rights in regards to your lost loved ones due to the lack of marital benefits and laws to protect us. So I do share some of your thoughts and feelings in regards to the matter...
I do not see this as an attack on all Christians, but towards the ones whom only use the bible to justify their causes; these are the ones who go outside their marriages almost every day, beat their wives, etc. but are supposedly saved on Sundays and washed clean of thier sins, only to continue sinning the next day. I would like to hear more of your views and their validity. I may be wrong, but I don't see your statement as an angry one, but a passionate one. Am I right?
The truth hurts, so feel the pain if it applies... and I am very passionate, it was meant to get my point across. So who ever you are Mr./Mrs. Anonymous, you are correct to assume such.
Is it the only issues? No... I didn't say it was; Abortion is just one more example of religious "do-gooders" getting in the way based solely on their beliefs for the moment.
People only find ways to suppress and segregate that of which they have fear and are ignorant of.
Ok few points without much elaboration:
1. You may not be angry, but it sure sounds like it to me. If anonymous is angry too, then they wouldn't disagree with you. But again, some of it may be justified.
2. It's funny that all of a sudden Christianity "clouds" government now, when America was founded on Christianity. America was actually founded on Freedom of The Pilgrims religion, not freedom for any religion. It's a common misconception. Some of the basic tennants of our goverment and those around the world are based on Judeo-Christian morality, laws and beliefs. But I guess we're supposed to get out of the way now, because you obviously know how to interpret those laws better.
3. I also find it hypocritical that liberals champion "tolerance" and "freedom of speech", but really only appreciate those things when pple agree with them. If I want to believe that homosexuality is a sin (which I'm not 100% sure about, but would lean towards, it is) I HAVE THAT RIGHT under our laws and government and everything else. So I'll be cheap and use that same verse on you: "judge not, lest ye be judged".
4. Now I will agree with you about gay marriage. When I step back and take out my religion's viewpoitn on homosexuality, I don't see much wrong with gay marriage. However, I don't feel too badly for homosexuals who want to get married. I don't really feel that they want to get married that badly, most don't hold the sacriment of marriage very hightly (not that straight pple are doing a great job of that either lately), I believe they just want to use this marriage issue to shine more light on the bigger "gay" issue and gain more acceptance of an alternative lifestyle. I think that is diversive and dishonest. However, this is not a huge issue for me, so you'll never see me on the picket line of either side.
4. The only difference between a Christian and a Non-Christian is that a Christian is someone who believes Jesus is everything he said he was, and has a personal relationship with him. Christians are not, never have been and never will be perfect. It's time you stopped expecting us to be so.
5. While I would never compare the situation of the modern american christian to most groups "persecuted" in history, I do believe that we are persecuted everyday. We are constantly ridiculed for our beliefs by academia and the media. People consistently equate faith with ignorance and naivity.
6. Now things are a little muddy for me when it comes to laws and morality concerning sexuality and gender roles. But you mention abortion and when it comes to that, I am completely clear. I'll fight you tooth and nail on this one. This is an issue that pisses me off a lot. Liberals and enemies of the christian faith use this one to paint us as backwards chuavanists stuck in the past, when it's just not true. The whole abortion issue boils down to one definition or determination. It is an argument on when you believe "life" begins. If you want to argue that life begins when a child is birthed, and anything before that is not killing a life, that's fine. However, Christians believe it begins earlier than that. Therefore, abortion is murder to Christians, not some method of keeping women down like you've painted it. Even non-believers believe that murder is wrong. This is one of the conservative christian political cultures biggest downfalls, the inability to frame this argument correctly. It frustrates me a lot.
7. I think it's weird that the original article I posted was about how Christians were starting to actually think when they vote, and not just tow the party line. How we've opened our eyes and began to really think about what's important, and yet you used this article to attack a viewpoint that is changing, however slowly. You could use this opportunity to applaud thought and progress, instead you chose to attack. Not a step towards what you want.
Hmmm... so maybe I did elaborate. Oh well.
So a recap of a few things; first off it is not an attack... some of my best friends and family members are Christians. Though I am not a Christian, I do have faith in God. Is this to be used solely to my advantage when it is convenient? Not at all, I have been on both sides of the fence; a die hard Christian and now, not quite a liberal. I will give more elaboration as my time permits, even if our conversation must be at length.
1. The proper path of religion in this world can not really be justified; it is like comparing apples to oranges. It can come down to the whether you believe the earth started by evolution or creation (I am in no way supporting the evolution theory) for example. No one really knows what god really wants, except to harm none and treat our neighbors as themselves(to love one another). I know I was not there for proof of all things wrote in the bible and I was not there to talk to god or his son, to be without doubt the path I am to follow or know right from wrong. (This is with out letting what we were taught to believe was right by our parents and religion). I don't know any one who can. I never met Noah, Job or any one else, not to mention see an obvious display of Gods force.
2. Again, I am by far a liberal; do I have moral's that I allow my life to be built on, by way of my parents and the way they reared us? Yes, I do... some things are not harmful, in which Christians base their faith; it actually keeps some sense of order, structure and civilization amongst people. For example "The Ten Commandments" the one part of Christian faith I support and give kudos to; even if Joe Smoe would have suggested it, it is in the best interest of all, not just a certain class of pple.
3. As far as gay marriage, I know that marriage is sacred to me (based off of one of the many values I choose to practice from my child rearing) and we who feel that way should have the equal opportunity to enjoy that privilege. We should not be denied by way of fear, prejudice or any hidden agenda's of others that live with in this life style. Even my father wants to perform the ceremony, but the law based on religion, does not allow us to make that commitment; it would be like taking away a Christians right to serve God based solely on the type of religion, because other Christians feared its teachings.
4. As far as Christians being perfect, I personally don't expect perfection; but an unclouded judgment in the interest of all pple. Does equal rights for gays really hurt anyone? What reason is there to with hold an equal freedom?
5. As far as persecution goes, I agree that we all have some form of persecution that we under-go in some form on a daily bases. In my experience there is prejudice within Christianity itself. Either they are frowned upon by other faiths due to their teachings, knocking on your door, and many (not all)believe that if you are not of their faith you are lesser and not one of god's chosen pple.; but you may be forgiven by default, all because you tried. (Ignorance is Innocence)
6. As far as abortion goes, it was an example.. why? because I do volunteer work for the community health centers, and the only one's trying to shut down the cause are Christian activists. All because the clinics perform abortions and give out condoms to teenagers (like it is condoning the act instead of a aid to the best interest of all those in accordance to health).
I personally say that if you willingly bed yourself with some one, then you should have to take the responsibility of your actions and not make the unborn child pay. Am I anti-abortion or pro-choice? No... not by far; I think that there are extenuating circumstances for everything. I personally do not like the idea of abortion, but if I tried to walk a mile in the other persons shoes, I may find it hard to support such efforts. Like a rape victim, I would not ask or expect one to carry, raise or just give birth to a child by unnatural causes; not all pple have the mental or emotional stability to perform such a task or feat.
Even after trying to imagine walking a mile in someone else's shoes, the truth is; I haven't walked in their shoe's and I could not justify having an unclouded judgment to support a cause one way or the other; that is grounds being established on prejudice, selfish religious beliefs and acts of hypocrisy. So we toss it back and forth; do not judge, yet ye be judged. Why fight an issue based on a religious belief when god will deliver you and we as a pple will pay our own price?
7. It goes to show that Christianity does have a hold on politics; I do not wish for those of various faiths to bow out, but to be unbiased in their vote towards the best interest of all humanity. If upholding GOD is your means, then shouldn't you allow god to justify this during his day of reckoning? For the laws and equality we ask for is not in any way suppressing Christianity and their right to worship (live in accordance to how you want to believe); so how is this a fair fight? Even yourself used Christianity's hold as a strong arm, a sense of control, suppression and enslavement to the religious beliefs of Christians; "Not a step towards what you want." Should we stroke the bruised ego's in order to have the freedom and equality that America stands for? Or should that be a given, being that is what America is suppose to be (diverse, equal, and free)? America is known to be founded by such things, because we were all in agreement and support such efforts no matter what background or country we hail from. It is in the best interest of all pple world wide. Now that is the UNBIASED, DIVERSE, EQUAL and FREE AMERICA I believe inand support as an American!
7. According to the beliefs of some faiths, one of the signs of the last days is religion and state being separated; so what is the fear? If those whom believe the bible is 100% accurate, the history always shows a cleansing of evil and politics from religion. Even Christ over turned tables in the synagogue due to the corruption of politics and money in god's house and Ceaser washed his hands clean of the decision to hang Christ. The decision had to be made due to the exercising of politics religious leaders exercised and the influential hold they had on government as a whole. Those who did not support this political move and showed faith in Christ were persecuted.
So in close, I do try not to attack and I take as many things into consideration before making, what I believe to be, a justified statement.
You do not want to be put into a category with the rest of these over reacting Christians, yet you put me in one yourself; " 'liberals champion "tolerance" and "freedom of speech", 'I believe they just want to use this marriage issue to shine more light on the bigger "gay" issue and gain more acceptance of an alternative lifestyle. I think that is diversive and dishonest'".
hey, good stuff. I think that if you compare this last argument, to your first, you can see a definite difference in tone. I respect your last argument much more. I understand and respect most of the things you just said. We'll just agree to disagree.
You might think it's silly to believe the story of creation because you weren't there, but I think it's just as ridiculous to think that a finite being like yourself can determine what is reality solely by what you've experienced. I guess more accurately you might say that since you don't know the answers and weren't there you're just not gonna believe anyone's explanation. That's fair and somewhat logical, I can't fault you. I just choose to believe differently.
Related to that point, I would have to disagree with you again on abortion. Now I have often thought about raped women and circumstances like that and thought I'd have an extremely hard time not taking an abortionists stance. I mean I tend to be a weak person at times, and I kinda feel like I would disregard my previous morals and justify my selfish actions if I were a raped girl or pregnant teen or something. But if we're able to step back and look purely at what's right and wrong, I'll always feel like it's wrong. As harsh as it may seem at times, I do tend to believe in a world of black and white. I understand grey, I sympathize with grey, I even want grey, but I believe there has to be black and white. Moral relativism is a dangerous trend that overemphasizes the importance of individuals that operate in a MUCH MUCH larger reality.
I don't believe I ever outright called you a "liberal". But it doesn't really matter, since in your latest response, you admit to being one a couple times. Actually, I'm a little confused about your last paragraph, as to what you were trying to say. Some Christians overreact and are intolerant, as are some Liberals. No one's perfect. I just get annoyed that a lot of liberals tend to paint us as the intolerant ones, when they're just as guilty. And I stand by my viewpoint on the majority of the gay community's desire for gay marriage. Maybe I'm negative and naive, but that's what I think.
This why I do not consider myself a proclaimed liberal or Christian, I am the gray area; I think all people should be honest, it keeps us separated from hypocrisy.
I always have a reason for my passions, they do not come whimsically. (If they do, I try not to act on them with out thinking it through.)
I have been married to my ex-husband for 13 years, so to us that really hold marriage sacred, do we not deserve to commit to those we love; even if it takes a hidden agenda of others for us to get there? At least we all have chance to experience REAL America.
In order to be true to oneself, we have to go with the decisions that is in our core, then we are true to ourselves and our god.
Like yourself, I will stand by my beliefs and the unbiased and non-prejudice appeal it has; for the grey is my true space of inner peace and truth to myself and my god.
I must clarify that I DO BELIEVE IN CREATION or else it would be hypocritical of me to say that I believe in god.
I did not say that I do not believe in creation, what I said was, "it is like comparing apples to oranges. It can come down to the whether you believe the earth started by evolution or creation (I am in no way supporting the evolution theory)".
This was set into the same tone, just not at the same projection... the first statement hits the hearts of many and grasp the attention of all by simple raw truth, it gets the point across and gets the wheels spinning, a preparation if you will.
The second statement is the logical reasoning behind the first explosion of raw truth.
So in essence, I am a logical reasoning behind those whom think it but are too fearful to verbally express it.
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